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Not that big of a deal

Posted by Maddog on 09/03/08 at 05:47 AM • 123 Comments

As mentioned earlier, Carlos Zambrano has some kind of pain in his arm and will see a doctor today.  We don’t know for sure where the pain is and it’s really not important to what I’m going to briefly say here anyway.  First of all, losing Zambrano is without a doubt bad news, but more so for him than it is for the team.  For the purpose of this piece I’m assuming Zambrano is done for the year, which is probably a fair assumption given that this is his 2nd arm injury of the 2008 season.


Lou has said that Sean Marshall will replace Zambrano in the rotation if needed.  What’s the difference between Marshall and Zambrano?  Well, over the course of 4 starts, not much at all.  That’s why this isn’t that big of a deal for the team.  I’m not saying it doesn’t make it more difficult.  As I already said, it’s definitely bad news, but not only are the Cubs going to the playoffs, they’re almost certainly going to finish with the best record in

baseball

the National League regardless of who takes Zambrano’s spot in the rotation. 

We’ll look at their projections first and then their actual 2008 numbers to get an idea of the differences between the two in terms of what kind of impact this will have on the team. Marcels projected Zambrano to post a 3.69 ERA in 2008 and it projected a 4.54 ERA for Sean Marshall.  That’s an expected winning percentage of .571 for Zambrano and .473 for Marshall.  We’re talking about 4 starts the rest of the season, 6 innings per start, or 24 total innings.  Converting the expected winning percentages into Wins Above Replacement, Zambrano was expected to add 0.536 WAR in those 24 innings while Sean Marshall is expected to add 0.275 WAR.  That’s only a difference of 0.261 wins.  Not even half a win the rest of the way.

Zambrano’s 2008 numbers are far more reliable than Sean Marshall’s in that he’s pitched significantly more innings, but let’s assume for the moment that each pitcher would have pitched the same down the stretch as they have so far this year.  That’s a 4.03 ERA for Marshall and a 3.58 ERA for Zambrano.  A lot of Marshall’s innings are in relief, which is easier to do than start, but I’m not going to bother with any adjustments.  Converting the ERA into expected winning percentage you get 0.585 for Zambrano and 0.530 for Marshall.  24 innings the rest of the way (same as above), that’s 0.573 WAR for Zambrano and 0.427 for Marshall.  Not even a quarter of a win the rest of the way.

As odd as it sounds, this is as good a time for this kind of injury as there is.  There is almost no long-term impact here so the overall loss will be minimized by the fact that we only have 20-some games left.  It’s just not that big of a deal.  You could put Ryan Theriot in the rotation for Zambrano and you probably aren’t losing one more game than you normally would have.  Actually, with the improvement on defense at shortstop were he to pitch, you might not lose anything at all.  I’m joking about that of course.

The impact in the playoffs, 3-5 starts, will be about the same as it is the rest of the way.  Not much at all.  The fact is that playoff teams have a relatively similar chance of winning it all once they get in the playoffs.  Losing Zambrano affects those chances for the Cubs, but only by a very little.  If anyone thought the Cubs were going to run away in the playoffs and go something like 11-4, well, they’ll still go 11-4, perhaps 11-5.  That’s it.  As I said, this really couldn’t have happened at a better time.  It will have almost no impact whatsoever over the next 1-2 months.  Maybe, MAYBE, it will cause the team to lose one more game than they normally would have. 

The only concern I have is this:  when will all the Dusty Baker is to blame for this begin?  Has it already?  If not, it soon will. 

[UPDATE] By the way, if you used a more advanced metric than ERA here, say, FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching), Zambrano’s FIP in 2007 and 2008 are 4.55 and 4.21.  Marshall’s is 4.57 and 4.53.  Zambrano’s X-FIP (Expected FIP) in 2007 and 2008 is 4.65 and 4.68.  Marshall’s is 4.56 and 4.22.  So if we switched from ERA to a more indicative measure of future success, the difference is even less, and perhaps non-existent. 

Comments

1. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 06:18 AM

The impact in the playoffs, 3-5 starts, will be about the same as it is the rest of the way.  Not much at all.  The fact is that playoff teams have a relatively similar chance of winning it all once they get in the playoffs.  Losing Zambrano affects those chances for the Cubs, but only by a very little.  If anyone thought the Cubs were going to run away in the playoffs and go something like 11-4, well, they’ll still go 11-4, perhaps 11-5.  That’s it.  As I said, this really couldn’t have happened at a better time.  It will have almost no impact whatsoever over the next 1-2 months.  Maybe, MAYBE, it will cause the team to lose one more game than they normally would have.

Personally, i’d rather have him get hurt in a year like 2005, when the Cubs were completely out of it. If he can rest and recover in time for the playoffs with a 15-day DL stint, that would be fine. But i think this team stands a significantly better chance of winning the WS with him in the rotation than with him out of it, especially given Z’s tendency to perform well in big games, and given the difference in the types of pitcher Z and Lilly are (hard-thrower made for Oct. vs. curveball guy).

I don’t think this is a little deal by any stretch of the imagination. 1 loss or a half a loss or a tenth of a loss or whatever doesn’t mean much in the regular season… but it can mean a hell of a lot in a 5-game or 7-game series.

And there’s another issue here, as well. Harden is saying he isn’t hurt, despite having his start pushed back a few days (which is how all this started with Z). I’m beginning to have nightmares of 2005.

2. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 06:27 AM

Shawn, picking up your comment from the previous thread, I have to believe Zambrano wasn’t being honest with the team about whether there was pain, because I think they would have done more than give him a couple of extra days if he said there was - they certainly would have had a doc look at him before that. Or maybe he wasn’t in actual pain before last night, I don’t know.

3. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 06:31 AM

they’re almost certainly going to finish with the best record in baseball regardless of who takes Zambrano’s spot in the rotation. 


i doubt we end up with baseball’s best record after this month

4. ccd — Sep 03, 2008 @ 06:33 AM

i doubt we end up with baseball’s best record after this month

Yeah, I struggle to see that happening.

5. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 06:33 AM

Probably not a big deal the rest of the season but it is in the playoffs. Hopefully it isn’t serious and he can rest up the rest of the way and be ready to go come playoff time. If I remember, he pitched pretty well out of the gate from his previous DL stint.

6. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 06:34 AM

The difference, of course, is that Zambrano can shut down opposing offenses for 7 or 8 innings. Marshall has yet to do that (if ever) w/ a frequency that suggests he can do something like Zambrano did last Fall.

Sure, take the averages of dozens of starts of each and find the difference over a few starts, and it’s not much different. But take their best potential over 3-5 starts and I think you have a huge difference—at least in terms of being an average team and being one that can win a World Series.

As you said, there isn’t much difference between the playoff teams once they get there. However, part of what makes the World Series team the winner is that their best players get hot and are playing near their best games.

Yeah, I like the Cubs chances vastly more w/ Zambrano over Marshall.

7. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 06:34 AM

And there’s another issue here, as well. Harden is saying he isn’t hurt, despite having his start pushed back a few days

harden was to be skipped entirely instead of being pushed back a few days.  Pushing him back further may just be extra cautious since Z went down.  Harden hasn’t pitched this much since ‘04 so going deep into October might be difficult on his arm if they don’t start to limit the innings.

Fans and media can play the blame game on Z being out for the CUbs struggles but that’s not the truth.  the offense just gets into 5-6 game slumps and this time is coinciding with a bit of a pitching slump.  They played like this at the end of July and got red-hot thereafter.  If they do that again the hot-streak should last through Oct.

8. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 06:48 AM

Fans and media can play the blame game on Z being out for the CUbs struggles but that’s not the truth.  the offense just gets into 5-6 game slumps and this time is coinciding with a bit of a pitching slump.  They played like this at the end of July and got red-hot thereafter.  If they do that again the hot-streak should last through Oct.

And they looked to be turning the corner last night. Seven runs is good, and they hit a few balls hard that were right at guys, especially in the sixth, when Soriano and Johnson were robbed by Blum. The offense will be fine, and even without Z, they still would have a playoff rotation of Harden, Dempster and Lilly, followed by a pretty solid pen. Obviously they’re better with Z, but this team still has plenty of depth to win the NL.

9. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 06:58 AM

they hit a few balls hard that were right at guys
DPLee did hit a rocket to Blum that he somehow got a glove on.  Still in that situation he needs to be thinking fly-ball.  1 out and bases loaded with a fly-out more than likely gives the Cubs a win.

10. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 07:29 AM

I can’t say anything except what I’ve said before: Sit them. Sit their asses down. Unless there is a danger of not going to the playoffs, shut both of these guys down till October.

And I’ve had it with this idea that Z is indestructible. It’s bullshit. Sit him, his fragile arm, and his fucking too much of a macho cocksucker selfish ego to admit he’s hurting down.

11. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 07:34 AM

DPLee did hit a rocket to Blum that he somehow got a glove on.

Eh, it wasn’t nearly that spectacular. Lee did hit it hard, but that was a tailor-made DP ball to third and though Blum isn’t exactly Joe Crede over there, he turned it rather easily. Lee needs to be taken out of the three hole. His days as a 3 hitter are over. He’s a 5 hitter now.

12. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:00 AM

let me just add

DOOOOOMMMM

13. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:07 AM

14. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:11 AM

15. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:12 AM

16. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:13 AM

i cant believe ryno didnt like my Al webgem from the other day about the “Go Men’s Restroom Go” topic

17. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:15 AM

TheHawk invests in microwave dinners:

18. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:16 AM

i cant believe ryno didnt like my Al webgem from the other day about the “Go Men’s Restroom Go” topic

I did like it, but was too busy to “LSA” it.

19. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:17 AM

This ad speaks to Al:

20. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:27 AM

ryno you know you just hang out here because you are afraid to be around people as witty as you (dying laughing)

21. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:29 AM

ryno you know you just hang out here because you are afraid to be around people as witty as you (dying laughing)

One of these days I’ll have the balls to admit to Maddog that I agree with TheHawk. I will say in all honestly that his blog is my favorite non-ACB Cubs blog out there. No shit.

22. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:32 AM

you do read every word

23. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:34 AM

By the way, Vitters went 1/3 with a walk in yesterday’s playoff game.

24. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:35 AM

you do read every word

I (laughing) do.

25. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:37 AM

btw what was that whole “nevermind” episode yesterday- i saw the OG comment but didnt know if you were joking or what

26. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:41 AM

i saw the OG comment but didnt know if you were joking or what

I wasn’t joking, but I decided to remove it because it wasn’t baseball-related.

27. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:43 AM

btw what was that whole “nevermind” episode yesterday

I always wondered why I don’t like people in general and it was interesting to me to find out why. As Dave Chapelle said in response to why he treats customers the way he does: “Why? ‘cause fuck ‘em, that’s why.”

28. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:46 AM

How about that Bears drafting now, guys? That Bowman—he’s starter caliber. Oh, and Steltz, too. Real stud. Blech.

29. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:48 AM

How about that Bears drafting now, guys?

It’s not even worth discussing, tyger. They suck at it. They always have, and, as long a Phillips, Angelo, and Lovie are around, will suck at it for the foreseeable future. Such is our lot in life as Bear fans.

30. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:54 AM

well that sucks man-

31. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:56 AM

so do they put you on meds now or just let you hate people in peace?

32. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 08:59 AM

so do they put you on meds now or just let you hate people in peace?

My doctor’s pretty cool. He knows I know myself better than him and he pretty much gives me whatever I want. The antisocial PD pretty much developed in response to the borderline PD (many of these PDs are comorbid). I’m going to continue unmedicated for awhile and see how I do (considering I’ve been doing it my whole life). If I feel any escalation, I might consider medicating.

33. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:01 AM

Mets are crushing the Brews

if we win tonight we will have come out of our 2nd worst losing streak and gained a game on the team behind us

not bad

34. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:05 AM

what is PD exactly?

35. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:06 AM

Who’s pitching for the No Hitter Whiners? Mets put up 6 in the first and hit two dingers!

36. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:08 AM

Dave Bush

37. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:08 AM

what is PD exactly?

personality disorder.

38. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:10 AM

what is personality disorder exactly?

39. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:10 AM

Bruce Levine is supposed to have a report on Zambrano on ESPN 1000 “in a few minutes.” As soon as he gives it, you guys will have it.

40. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:10 AM

what is personality disorder exactly?


He’s fucking psycho haven’t you figured that out yet?

41. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:11 AM

personality disorder.

I don’t have that problem. Everyone else does.

42. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:12 AM

thanks mayo


ive got my fingers crossed

43. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:12 AM

He’s fucking psycho haven’t you figured that out yet?

It’s sociopath, Cone. And I’m not a full-blown sociopath.

44. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:13 AM

It’s sociopath, Cone. And I’m not a full-blown sociopath.


Sugarcoat it all you want plain and simple you’re psycho. :)

45. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:15 AM

Sugarcoat it all you want plain and simple you’re psycho. smile

Feminist. (dying laughing)

46. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:16 AM

dont let the liberal media tell you how to feel ryno, if you have hate in your heart let it out! White power!

47. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:18 AM

White power!

48. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:19 AM

dont let the liberal media tell you how to feel ryno, if you have hate in your heart let it out!

+1

White power!

Unfortunately I dislike whites as much as any other race. It’s actually not dislike as much as it is indifference.

49. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:21 AM

DJ, I’m going to kick your ass in LOHO fantasy playoffs.

50. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:23 AM

ty- i havent done much with that team in over a month i checked this morning and I guess its playoff time

but there is no doubt i drafted the best team and thats all that really counts

51. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:23 AM

While we’re on the subject of psychology, I’d like to point out another thing that gets on my nerves: People who say ‘negative reinforcement’ and don’t know what it means. Negative reinforcement is NOT punishment in response to an action. It’s the removal of a stimulus in response to an action.

Poking a person with a needle when they answer a question incorrectly is positive reinforcement. Poking a person with a needle continuously and removing the needle when they answer correctly is negative reinforcement.

52. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:29 AM

that wasnt baseball related Ryno

53. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:31 AM

that wasnt baseball related Ryno

Yeah, but there was not post about it above.

54. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:31 AM

sabathia was plus one win right?

55. Faith — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:39 AM

Any word on Z?

56. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:40 AM

nothing yet on Z. ESPN 1000 keeps promising a report from Levine, but nothing so far.

57. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:42 AM

You are simply amazing at fantasy baseball DJ. You should grow up and be a GM. Clearly.

58. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:47 AM

Hey, tyger, what do you make of this whole Tommie Harris knee injury thing?

59. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 09:48 AM

i should tyger- when you look at how awesome my team was over the season my brillance cannot be questioned.

60. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:24 AM

My predict on Z:

Tendinitis of some sort. Shut down until the last week of the season. Will pitch in the postseason.

Cubs win the division by 6 games anyway.

61. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:30 AM

I think you’re onto something, there, ygo. I’d bet it’s something akin to that, if not that exactly.

62. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:39 AM

Mets up 8-2 over the Brews in the 8th. I’d say the Brewers are pretty fucked.

63. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:41 AM

Brewers season:

64. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:42 AM

I’d say the Brewers are pretty fucked.


Don’t count them out their next 7 games are cakewalks. 4 with SD and 3 with Cincy all at home.

65. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:43 AM

brews still have a large lead over everyone else for the WC

66. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:44 AM

I meant in this game. I know they’ll still probably get the wild card.

67. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:46 AM

My predict on Z:

Tendinitis of some sort. Shut down until the last week of the season. Will pitch in the postseason.

Cubs win the division by 6 games anyway.

decent prediction.

68. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:51 AM

Man, came here, saw a post at 2:10 PM that said Levine was supposed to be on “in a few minutes,” kept reading through and discovered that was just AM 1000 being dicks to us, since it’s 100 minutes later and still nothing.

69. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:52 AM

Hmmmm. Interesting notes from Ken Rosenthal on Jim Hendry:

In reality, the franchise is for sale, Hendry is in the last year of his contract and an unusual provision in his deal only adds to the intrigue.

Hendry’s contract gives him the option to return on a one-year deal in 2009, major-league sources say. The option is Hendry’s, not the club’s. He must decide whether to exercise it by the end of the year.

If the Cubs are sold before then, the new ownership can make a contract extension for Hendry one of its first priorities.

But if the sale drags into ‘09 — or if the new ownership waffles on Hendry — the Cubs could lose their GM.

70. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:53 AM

Yeah, vlad, I’ve already switched to The Score. They usually scoop Levine anyway.

71. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 10:57 AM

Jovan Rosa led the Cubs minor leagues with 43 2B this season in 536 PA.  He had 54 XBH total.

Do you have any information on Jake Fox, Ryno?  He’s not really a prospect, but I’m more interested if the Cubs told him something about his batting or worked with him in Tennessee, because he was a very different hitter there then he has been for most of his minor league career.

For instance:
Jake Fox
K%, minor league career: 18.5%
K%, 2008 Tennessee: 15.8 % (lowest since 2005)

BB%, minor league career: 6.7%
BB%, 2008 Tennessee: 10.4% (2 IBB, 17 HBP, career high)

Not totally out of line with his numbers thus far considering he was repeating a level, but patience and power are very valuable in bench bats.  It’s not a big deal, I just didn’t know if you’d seen anything about him.

72. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:01 AM

Brewers lose 9-2.

73. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:03 AM

I’m predicting a Brewers collapse.  At this point, them not making the playoffs is highly improbable, but I’m thinking they back into the playoffs and make an early exit.  I just see that team/management construction and see a highly combustible situation just looking for some kindling.  Yost flipped his lid over a hit call in that Sabathia game.  That’s pretty ridiculous, going to bat for a dude on a bad call is one thing, but going off on it in the post game is stupid and shows that you aren’t really focused on your real job: helping those players win as many games as possible.

74. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:04 AM

The Milwaukee Brewers are a pretty bad baseball team with one really, really fucking good pitcher, and a another one who is very good. That lineup is very streaky, and the remainder of the rotation, and the bullpen, are pretty damn bad.

75. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:09 AM

Brewers season:

They wish their season was that awesome.

76. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:18 AM

Do you have any information on Jake Fox, Ryno?

Nothing new, i.e. nothing on changes he’s incorporated. I attributed his success in AA to his time at higher levels. Maybe I’m wrong.

77. Harry Pavlidis — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:19 AM

Poking a person with a needle when they answer a question incorrectly is positive reinforcement. Poking a person with a needle continuously and removing the needle when they answer correctly is negative reinforcement.

That would be positive punishment - positive/negative refers the change in stimulus (take away is neg, give is pos).  Punishment/Reinforcement refers to the desired effect on the subject’s behavior.  You reinforce actions you want to keep, punish those you’d like to eliminate. 

It’s been a long time since I taught psych 101, but I remember that much :-)

78. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:20 AM

Nothing new, i.e. nothing on changes he’s incorporated. I attributed his success in AA to his time at higher levels. Maybe I’m wrong.

I kind of did too, but wanted another opinion.  Thanks.

79. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:23 AM

(take away is neg, give is pos)

That’s what I was getting at. People use the term ‘negative reinforcement’ as a synonym for punishment and it just gets on my nerves.

80. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:24 AM

Thanks.

No problem. We minors guys gotta stick together. We should collaborate on the top-10 prospects after the season.

81. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:24 AM

Hey, Harry, you have an opinion on Zambrano? My own line of thinking is that, even given his laboring, the velocity was there, just not the movement, which would seem to indicate some kind of deadarm or maybe some shoulder tendinitis, but not something more serious, like a tear or an elbow problem, as the loss of movement in those cases is usually accompanied by a serious drop in velocity.

82. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:27 AM

That would be positive punishment

Forgot to address that part. I used a bad analogy to make my point, but I was pounding the keyboard in anger because that just makes me so mad.

I assume you have at least a masters to teach PSY 101, so maybe you can give me some pointers on how to quell my borderline and antisocial (and actually a touch of avoidant) PDs. I’d prefer behavioral and cognitive therapy. Just some things I can do on my own.

83. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:35 AM

We should collaborate on the top-10 prospects after the season.

Sounds like a good idea.  It’ll be an interesting top 10 I think, due to some less than stellar years on some of our top 10 from last year, and the introduction of some college arms that could climb the ladder in a hurry.  I’ve got a pretty high opinion of Hung-Wen Chen after the way he’s pitched since he got promoted to Daytona.

84. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:37 AM

Piniella heading to the podium for his pre-game. Details to follow.

85. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:39 AM

Hart just got called up, so Z’s out for at least a little bit.

86. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:40 AM

Official word is that Zambrano had an arm exam today, and will have an MRI tomorrow. No further news from the Cubs.

87. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:41 AM

I didn’t know if people already saw this, but Josh Vitters was the only unanimous selection to the Northwest League All-Star team.  The Cubs don’t have to rush him since he’ll only be 19 next year, but I personally feel that if he doesn’t earn a demotion to at least Daytona before the end of next season it’ll be a disappointment.

88. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:43 AM

It’ll be an interesting top 10

No shit. We graduated our two top prospects and Pie’s no longer eligible, so it’s going to be pretty dynamic. Also, like I said before, there’s not a lot of disparity between the tiers of prospects.

89. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:44 AM

if he doesn’t earn a demotion to at least Daytona before the end of next season it’ll be a disappointment.

That’s where I am too. If he’s doing his thing, he’ll hit well enough to end the season in Daytona.

90. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:45 AM

Samael,

I fully expect the Cubs to give Vitters the full Pie treatment: rush him to the majors, then burn all of his option years in rapid succession, taking all steps necessary to ruin his trade value to furthest extent possible.

91. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:49 AM

the full Pie treatment

I don’t think that will work with Vitters. This kid can flat out hit and he’ll probably be the type that bursts onto the scene and then has to adjust rather than the other way around.

92. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:49 AM

I fully expect the Cubs to give Vitters the full Pie treatment: rush him to the majors, then burn all of his option years in rapid succession, taking all steps necessary to ruin his trade value to furthest extent possible.

Such an optimist.  Good thing he isn’t with the Mets or Mariners, or he might already be in the big leagues with how they rush their prospects.

93. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:51 AM

This kid can flat out hit and he’ll probably be the type that bursts onto the scene and then has to adjust rather than the other way around.

I hope so, because the current Cub regime has no patience with kids that need a little time to get their feet wet. For aging, crappy vets, however, like Howry, Ward, and Edmonds, there’s no end to the patience this club has for their increasingly shitty play.

94. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:52 AM

Good thing he isn’t with the Mets or Mariners, or he might already be in the big leagues with how they rush their prospects.

Point taken. I was also half kidding there.

95. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 11:58 AM

I hope so, because the current Cub regime has no patience with kids that need a little time to get their feet wet.

I’m sure they fully intend to have Vitters as a corner outfielder or infielder. At this point, they may have him pegged as Lee’s replacement. Maybe Fukudome’s. With his bat, they’ll use him in one of those positions or as bait for a trade for one of those positions.

96. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:00 PM

So you’ll pop in to correct me but not to help me, eh Harry?

97. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:01 PM

At this point, they may have him pegged as Lee’s replacement. Maybe Fukudome’s.

Is that because his defense is subpar at third, or is it part of the Cubs’ incessant need to put players where they’d like them to be, instead of where they’re best suited to play?

98. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:05 PM

Is that because his defense is subpar at third

No more subpar than ARam’s was. In fact, he’s better. His problem is with the plays where he has too much time. This kid’s bat will play at any position, so CHC will put him wherever they have a need.

99. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:07 PM

This kid’s bat will play at any position

That would pretty much be the coolest thing ever as a Cubs fan.

100. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:08 PM

Piniella quotes from the presser:

The MRI that he was supposed to take, he didn’t take, he didn’t take it, for whatever reason, so the examination is incomplete, so we won’t know anything until it’s complete….He was supposed to take an MRI today, it was available to him, and he didn’t take it.
I’m not going to pitch anyone that I don’t feel like can pitch. So, until we’ve got the results of the MRI, we’ve got Marshall in the rotation.
I was a little surprised in the fifth, when he told the trainer he couldn’t go. We thought he could go yesterday, and if we didn’t, I wouldn’t have sent him out there…but I haven’t talked to him since last night.

101. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:10 PM

His problem is with the plays where he has too much time.

Ramirez had trouble with those, too, in addition to his throws. That’s good to know, because it means he can improve.

102. Jame Gumb, editor-in-chief ® — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:14 PM

That would pretty much be the coolest thing ever as a Cubs fan.

No shit. Somebody mentioned Evan Longoria and I think that’s a good comp.

That’s good to know, because it means he can improve.

Exactly. Some people just look at the box scores and see ‘E’ by his name and groan.

103. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:22 PM

No shit. Somebody mentioned Evan Longoria and I think that’s a good comp
I’ve seen Howie Kendrick with more power.  That would work as well.

104. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:26 PM

piniella is strange when it comes to the pitchers and their “injuries”.  I am not sure if he is trying to keep the media from drawing unnecessary conclusions or if they are trying to prolong the truth from getting out about the severity.

105. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:30 PM

I think it’s a bit of both JMan, but Piniella said no team personnel, save the team doctor, has spoken to Zambrano since he left the game last night. Apparently, he was taken down, showered, and left.

106. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:39 PM

Ahem:

Health reports of the Cubs’ pitching staff may be going from bad to worse as Lou Piniella admitted today for the first time that right-hander Rich Harden is experiencing “discomfort.”

107. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:41 PM

The Score is intimating that Z blew off his MRI today, and is MIA, as he is not at Wrigley.

108. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:42 PM

Check above, A. Grieve. I posted Piniella’s quote on the subject.

109. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:52 PM

jesus titty fucking christ you just knew this would happen

110. Harry Pavlidis — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:54 PM

Rich Harden is experiencing “discomfort.”

Is it that “not so fresh feeling”?

111. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:57 PM

DJ, it’s really nothing to get worked up about yet. Any Cub fan that is surprised that Harden is hurt is fucking naive and anyone who’s worried this much about Zambrano is way too reactionary. Let’s let the dust settle and see what happens. Harden has a shoulder made of spun glass and everyone knew this; Zambrano has a lot of miles on his arm and it was only a matter of time before he hit the 15 day DL. Everyone thought Josh Beckett was heading for TJ surgery and he’s slated to pitch Friday. Settle down. Better now than in October.

112. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:57 PM

Is it that “not so fresh feeling”?

To douche, or not to douche, that is the question.

113. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 12:58 PM

why the fuck wouldnt Z take his MRI? and with the miles on his arm if something is wrong i would think its more likely that he ends up on the 60 day DL rather than the 15.

bah

114. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:04 PM

why the fuck wouldnt Z take his MRI? and with the miles on his arm if something is wrong i would think its more likely that he ends up on the 60 day DL rather than the 15.

bah

Jesus, Joseph, and Patrick. Since when has an Irishman had to talk someone down. Nevertheless, there are any number of reasons why Z didn’t or hasn’t taken the MRI. Or, he did, and the Cub are feeding was a line of shit. They’ve done that before with both Wood and Prior. All I’m saying, DJ, is just calm down. Even without Z being anywhere close to his best, the Cubs are keeping up. This is a good team, and it can absorb these types of blows. The real danger is if Zambrano and/or Harden cannot pitch in the playoffs. If that happens, well, the Cubs are in a world of shit.

115. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:06 PM

fuck your logic you stathead faggot! there is no love of baseball there, in times like this i go with my “gut” which tells me Z wont pitch until 2010.

And Rich Harden died yesterday

116. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:07 PM

The real danger is if Zambrano and/or Harden cannot pitch in the playoffs.

I think that’s part of DJ’s point.

If that happens, well, the Cubs are in a world of shit.

If they’re both hurt, there’s no reason to worry. They won’t do shit in the playoffs w/ Zambrano and Harden out, and we all know that, so no reason to worry.

117. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:08 PM

I think that’s part of DJ’s point.

correct, im more worried that we are dealing with a major injury at this point than a 15 day break

118. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:13 PM

fuck your logic you stathead faggot! there is no love of baseball there, in times like this i go with my “gut” which tells me Z wont pitch until 2010.

And Rich Harden died yesterday

(dying laughing)

im more worried that we are dealing with a major injury at this point than a 15 day break

Could be. But I’m not going to get worried until I know that for sure. At that point, I’ll likely be completely inconsolable, but not until then.

In truth, though, this is what happens with the Cubs. Even the best season in team history can’t pan out, because God hates the Cubs.

119. pmayo — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:19 PM

Who’s doing the gamethread?

120. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:20 PM

i will put one up if nobody else does around 6: 45 or so

121. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:29 PM

The only thing I’m sure about here is that Zambrano is 100 percent fucking crazy. We’ve known that for sometime, but this seals it. Even for a man as odd as Zambrano, skipping the MRI for no apparent reason is weird. just fucking weird.

Did Lou say what kind of discomfort Harden has? If it’s a shoulder or back, bummer. But it could be a toothache or a fucking hangnail for all we know. Honestly, I wouldn’t mind if they shut them both down for a week or two. At most it costs the team a few games, which they can spare. And if the offense gets hot again, it wont mean shit.

Hope Dempster can stop the slide tonight. Someone mentioned above that despite the four game losing streak, the Cubs have slipped much in the standings. It would be sweet to pick up a game on those fuckheads to the north tonight.

122. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:45 PM

I’m so sick of Zambrano.

Lou needs to go Rob Dibble on Z’s ass right now. Get him in a headlock and shove Blanco’s sweaty, hispanic jock in his mouth.

Either that, or rip off Howry’s arm and beat Z firmly about the head and shoulders with the bloody stump.

123. — Sep 03, 2008 @ 01:45 PM

gamethread up

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