The Supreme Court ruled in 1972 in Curt Flood’s case that it was up to Congress to change baseball antitrust exemptions. 

The thing I think many people don’t realize is that the exemption is just one thing.  There are actually some aspects that I think should or must be kept in order to preserve the game.  Furthermore, I’m not sure anything relating to the exemption has anything to do with potential owners.  In order to take something to the Supreme Court, which is where it would have to go to reverse the 1972 ruling, Cuban and Zell would have to show that their rights have been violated.  What rights would have been violated?

There have actually been several instances of MLB settling out of court, even on the federal level. 

The next issue is money and time.  Actually challenging the exemption would take millions and millions of dollars and a very long time. 

In recent years the only time you hear threats about the antitrust exemption is from Congress.  MLB will say they don’t want to do something (drug testing) and Congress then threatens to create legislation getting rid of their exemption.  MLB caves in.

Recent legislation has been introduced (Fairness in Antitrust in National Sports) to get rid of baseball antitrust exemption, but it went nowhere.

all it takes is one senator to block it.

Most valuable player goes to a guy who pitches one inning a game? I understand the closer role is a very vital role, but paying any attention whatsoever to the percentages and WinEx it becomes clear that the closers job is a crapshoot. Closers aren’t MVPs over a slugger who (and no one would argue here) will probably go down as one of the BEST sluggers (barring some major freak injury) in history.

Darn, I’m late to the party with my last post. Oh well.

Maybe MLB should change the name of the award to Best Player or change the voting instructions for MVP to tell the writers that they are voting for the best player in the league rather than some hazily defined standard.

I don’t like Pujols, probably because he is a Cardinal, but I can’t deny that he is the best player in the league.  This guy is going to be a first ballot Hall of Famer when he retires.  As far as this season goes, nobody was close to him as an offensive force.  If GM’s were picking teams from scratch, I’m pretty sure that most of them would want Albert Pujols.

Rob also said:

I know that Dawson did not hit .220 in September, as Pujols did this year.

Where does he get this stuff from?  Pujols hit .321/.427/.702 in September.

He’s also almost certainly, as Faith said, going to be the third or fourth best hitter in MLB history at the end of his career, barring a horrific injury or Griffey-like string of injuries.

If he plays long enough, which will depend largely on health, I think there’s a decent chance he goes down as the best hitter in history.  While the best player in history is Babe Ruth at this point, the best hitter in history is Barry Bonds.  The year Pujols had this season was probably better than any Bonds had and I get a funny feeling that not only can Pujols do it again, but I think he might be able to do it better.

He had a regularly great season but the people who “kept” them competitive were guys like Ludwick who weren’t expected to produce and because of their performance all season, the Cards were in the race most of the way.

So the award can’t be given to the really good players who are expected to produce, but the other players who do something special though not as good as what the really good players do. 

We have so far, it’s OK to give the award to someone who finishes on a team in 1st or 6th place, but definitely not 4th place.  Can’t give it to someone who is puts up MVP caliber seasons year in and year out.  We have to give to those who weren’t expected to be good, or in other words, those who most likely had a fluke season.

dawson hit .282/.339/.485 in september ‘87.

Bullshit.  He hit .220.  You know it’s true.

I’d throw in a vote for Howard if and only if in his next subway commercial he uses the bat to take jareds head off.

The year Pujols had this season was probably better than any Bonds had and I get a funny feeling that not only can Pujols do it again, but I think he might be able to do it better.

Let’s not forget what an absolute monster Barry Bonds is

in 2004 Bonds put up a .362/.609(!!)/.812(!!!) season

This year (arguably Pujols’s best year), Pujols put up a .357/.462/.653 line, which is not too shabby. Hard to compare with a 1.421 OPS though - he also had >1.3 OPS in 01 and 02.

If you’re talking pre-2000 Bonds though, their OPS numbers (at least) are pretty similar (except that bonds had the SBs).

At no point in this last season did Pujols have the look of a MVP, he also lacked a MVP swagger.  I think its probably due to not enough of knowing how to play the game, or playing the game the right way.  Must be because hes from the Dominican, they only have talent and tools there.

In order to take something to the Supreme Court, which is where it would have to go to reverse the 1972 ruling, Cuban and Zell would have to show that their rights have been violated.

Zell’s right to sell to the highest bidder if the owners deny that person. I truly believe MLB owners had better think twice about this if they decide to blackball Cuban if he is the top bidder.

Actually challenging the exemption would take millions and millions of dollars and a very long time. 

I don’t think it would take near the amount he stands to lose if they blackball the highest bidder. You may be talking a couple hundred million dollars and there is no way the lawsuit would take that much. I don’t think the court battle would amount to much either it’s not like you have a witness list a mile long in fact I wouldn’t think it would take long at all once it started.

There’s really absolutely nothing that can be done here.  Zell needs money and he has to sell this team.  He has to sell this team to the owner who can give him the best offer that isn’t Mark Cuban, and it’s not just the best offer, but it has to do with credit and a whole bunch of things I don’t understand. 

If Mark Cuban can’t get approval by two-thirds of the National League owners there is nothing he can do.  The courts have already said that Congress has to change the law and there is no way on earth that it’s going to happen soon enough that would allow Zell to wait and sell to Cuban. 

If Cuban can get approval and has the most attractive offer, Zell will sell to him.

There won’t be any court battles.  I can guarantee you that is the LEAST likely thing to happen.

Apparently Levine only said that Dempster would decide on the Cubs offer (4/$52 million) within 48 hours, NOT that he would sign with the Cubs within 48 hours.

A lot of focus is being given to Cuban, but I was under the impression he wasnt even favored to get the cubs from the beginning.

I think a lot of us were optimistic that he would get the Cubs, but never has he been considered anything other than a longshot and these recent charges make any chances he may have once had disappear.

NSBSers link to us

That same Towers interview said the Cubs would have to involve a 3rd or perhaps even a 4th team to get this done, Hendry is creative when it comes to blockbusters.. but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

I don’t think it happens, but Towers has to trade Peavy, 3 teams, 4 teams or 29 team trade.  Why wouldn’t Towers say he wants more and that the Cubs have to do this or that?  It’s all posturing.  I’m glad to see Hendry isn’t playing his game.  He knows Towers isn’t calling the shots here.

I saw that correction on the Levine report JG.  I don’t have a feeling either but something tells me he might walk.

Furcal’s agent said one team has already offered 3/39.  that has to be the Giants as no other team would do something like that unless hendry is desperate for a lead-off guy.

i think Dempster would be crazy to take that offer.  Don’t you?

This is probably his last chance at a big contract. I know everyone says people go where the money is, but I don’t agree. Living near Arlington, I’d take a $25 million offer from TEX before I’d take a $50 million offer from NYY. If Dempster’s happy where he is, he might take that offer even though he could get an extra $20 million elsewhere.

A 4/52M deal for Ryan Dempter is evidence that the market for FA pitching is fucking crazy.  What’s sad is that he’s the best option, money-wise, for the Cubs other than a 45-year old with a back injury waiting to happen.

If you challenge this owner’s approval thing, the end of MLB isn’t far off.  It could not sustain the changes that would be forthcoming.  No revenue sharing.  Several franchises would be contracted within a decade.  No more draft.  No more minor league affiliates and teams would buy up minor league franchises as they did many years ago creating a pipeline of talent.  Amateur players would be signing ridiculous contracts.  The only teams that could sustain these events are the large market teams.  There is no chance that MLB, the government, nor the other owners will let that happen.

Those things are not what’s the issue. The issue is the country club mentality where if we don’t like you then you are not allowed in that’s what will change and nothing else. All I know is if I was selling the team and needed money and the highest bidder was 200M more than the next guy and the owners shot my top bid down I’d tell them to go pound sand in their ass.

just posted this to the old thread, i’ll bring it over here for continuity…

dbrown, what I keep asking though is how does Cuban’s bid impact other franchises if it’s not going to be accepted? For example, Sabathia was offered $140 million over 6 years by the Yankees and $100 million over 5 years by the Brewers.  If he accepts the Yankees offer all other free agents are going to benefit.  If he accepts the Brewers offer the Yankees offer will have no impact on free agency. 

I think we can agree that if:

1)  the yankees are at $140/6
2)  the brewers are at $100/5, and
3)  sabathia wants to play for the brewers…

...that he will use the yankees bid to either get the brewers to 5 years or the total $ higher, or both.  That benefits sabathia.  That benefits future free agents everywhere.

And even if you think for some reason that the brewers offer is their final offer, the only reason they are at $100 in the first place is because the yankees are involved.  Do the brewers typicallly throw out $20mm contracts for the next 5 years to players they don’t have to compete with the yankees on?

the sabathia analogy is actually a perfect comparison, because you could compare him as “the cubs” of the free agent season.

agents do this crap all the time, i can’t believe this is a novel concept?

The issue is the country club mentality where if we don’t like you then you are not allowed in that’s what will change and nothing else.

hey - don’t knock country clubs.

I do think in this economic environment zell will have more leverage than he would otherwise re: legitimizing the top dollar bid.  his company is in trouble, and they need to raise capital.  selig and the owners can reject and posture all they want, but when zell goes public with the fact that every $100mm he can’t take means 1000-2000 more people fired…with a chicagoan in the oval office (albeit a sox fan)...i don’t know.

but i do think cuban having SEC charges against him changes the landscape, and potentially illegitimizes his bid.  if it’s just a fine though, that would be a tough argument for mlb to make as they directly lead to the firing of people over a misdemeanor.

So, I guess what I’m saying is, there IS incentive for owners to illegitimize cuban now, before the bidding gets going.  However, it is an awfully expensive decision to make as it has a significant mark-to-market impact on their own assets.

hey - don’t knock country clubs.

MLB’s antitrust is a crock of shit. If Cuban is blackballed how the hell did Steinbrenner’s ass get accepted in then. He’s done more to destroy baseballs salary structure than the rest of the teams combined.

country clubs are nice. you can play a quick round of golf with significantly fewer knuckleheads in the way. the pools are nice. good tennis courts. get a meal…

Dempster is just as likely to suffer an injury as any of the pitchers available, thus my sentiments that he’s the best option for the Cubs despite being offered 4/52.  I’d much rather have that contract than Peavy’s.  If the Cubs ever had a chance to trade Marquis it will be this off-season.  He’d be a nice 5th starter on most teams that don’t want to jump into this FA pool.

Yeah, I’d agree with that. Peavy’s contract is a bit daunting.  I think Marquis might actually improve in a park like PetCo. As prone as he is to the HR and with a seeming propensity to walk guys in bunches, he’s just poorly suited to pitch at Wrigley Field. Making half his starts at a cavern like PetCo might actually help him.

how the hell did Steinbrenner’s ass get accepted in then

He paid people off? I dunno. If I were Cuban, I’d start lining the pockets of 29 other owners, too.

i agree which is why i think that if the cubs have a firm budget to stay under paying a ton of money for a 5th great pitcher is not a balanced use of capital (assuming demp resigns).

if you had to choose:

1) furcal

or

2) no furcal, but you get peavy in the rotation, bumping marquis, and also making one of your current 4 useless in a playoff series

which do you choose?

You expect too much out of the #5 spot.  Which #5 starter was better than Marquis last year?

Saying that Marquis is the best of a bad lot is no argument for not attempting to upgrade. If they have to go with Marquis because there are no other options, so be it, but as long as Randy Johnson remains unsigned, and as long as Sean Marshall is around, there are other, better options, at least to my mind.

Towers has no pressure to trade Peavy, he’s got time left on the contract and what not..I haven’t been paying a whole lot of attention, why are they moving Peavy again?

I’m sure someone else has answered already, but the Padres owner is going through a divorce and the club has to trim payroll from $77 million in 2008 to under $40 million in 2009.  It would be damn near impossible for the Padres to do this without trading Peavy.  Since they exercised their option on Giles, that pretty much sealed Peavy’s fate.

Saying that Marquis is the best of a bad lot is no argument for not attempting to upgrade. If they have to go with Marquis because there are no other options, so be it, but as long as Randy Johnson remains unsigned, and as long as Sean Marshall is around, there are other, better options, at least to my mind.

Upgrading an area that is the clubs strength though is a waste of money if it can be spent elsewhere.  Now if they were to dump Marquis contract I would hope that money be spent on offense not another pitcher.  I just think its rather silly to bitch and moan like so many cubs fans do about Marquis as if he was some terrible #5 starter.  This isnt a video game and you cant have a rotation of 5 aces.

I know everyone says people go where the money is, but I don’t agree. Living near Arlington, I’d take a $25 million offer from TEX before I’d take a $50 million offer from NYY. If Dempster’s happy where he is, he might take that offer even though he could get an extra $20 million elsewhere.

I think it’s a bit different for you and I than it is for Dempster and MLB players.  These guys are pressured beyond belief to take the highest offer and I imagine in a boys club like MLB, there are some unwanted circumstances that arise from taking a much smaller offer.  Also, these cities are rarely the home for these players.  Some players do live in the cities in which they play, but most do not.  I have no idea where Dempster lives, but if he does live in Chicago, I can see that being a factor.  Then again, they’re also gone frequently so the idea of home isn’t as big a deal to them as you and I.  Or I’d guess anyway.

A 4/52M deal for Ryan Dempter is evidence that the market for FA pitching is fucking crazy.  What’s sad is that he’s the best option, money-wise, for the Cubs other than a 45-year old with a back injury waiting to happen.

He’s worth 4/52 so I have no issues with that kind of a contract.  Much more than that and I think it’s a bad deal and the Cubs have to look elsewhere.  Ideally the Cubs would sign him for 3/36 but that isn’t happening.

Upgrading an area that is the clubs strength though is a waste of money if it can be spent elsewhere.

This isn’t the same as having DeRosa and going after Brian Roberts. It’s like saying: the Cubs had the best offense, why try to make it better? Spending the money on a fifth starter who is good enough to be a third starter is better than spending it on a reliever… the one area the Cubs didn’t excel.

This isn’t the same as having DeRosa and going after Brian Roberts. It’s like saying: the Cubs had the best offense, why try to make it better? Spending the money on a fifth starter who is good enough to be a third starter is better than spending it on a reliever… the one area the Cubs didn’t excel.

Exactly. Well put, tyger.

If you’re bored

I noticed that sneaky little blurb, too. I wonder where Rosenthal is getting his info?

This was in the paper the other day. Zell wants it done by end of year.

Zell wants it done by end of year.

Is that when he has to begin paying down the Trib’s debt?

Perhaps. But there’s no reason to posit the two dichotomously; the Cubs could sign Randy Johnson, and upgrade at SS and sign a RF. Or they could upgrade RF by moving Derosa there, and sign Johnson and Furcal. They probably won’t do any of these things, but they could.

Im thinking more along the lines of limited funds for upgrades though.  Id prefer them to splurge the money on a SS or RF not a 5th starter.

We already have Marshall, and if Guzman stays healthy he could be a very nice surprise.

Replacing Marquis with Johnson is a less cost effective upgrade than replacing Theriot with Furcal, and I’m willing to bet that it would net us less wins as well… but i didnt look it up

I’m sure MD or Colin could run the numbers. I’d be interested to see how it works out.

I’m sure MD or Colin could run the numbers. I’d be interested to see how it works out.

Id be interested too.

I’m pressured to do a lot of shit that I don’t do.

are you talking about that bad man in the park again?

I’m out for the day.

MLB’s antitrust is a crock of shit. If Cuban is blackballed how the hell did Steinbrenner’s ass get accepted in then. He’s done more to destroy baseballs salary structure than the rest of the teams combined.

Steinbrenner bought the team in, what, 1973?  What were the circumstances prior to that?  What was known about him before 1973?  I also disagree that he’s done anything to destroy the game.  He’s made the players richer and after a century of being fucked over by the owners, it’s nice to see some owner doing what should have been done over 100 years ago.  He’s been great for the game and so would Mark Cuban.  I have a feeling Steinbrenner would not be approved if we knew he’d have done what he did though.

What I meant is like upgrading at SS would probably be more cost effective and result in more wins than replacing Marquis with a better but non-ace pitcher.  Same could be said about RF.

I wouldn’t disagree w/ that. Two things I would take into consideration, though: 1) of the three, starting pitcher, RF, SS, replacing Theriot is probably third on Hendry’s list. 2) I think most of us are assuming that Johnson getting signed would mean Marquis getting traded. Even if the Cubs paid half his salary, you’d be replacing Marquis w/ Johnson for around $5 million, and that’s not bad at all.

Zell needs money.  He can’t afford to wait this out in court, Cone.  He’ll go bankrupt doing so.  Do you honestly think a billionaire is going to haggle over a few hundred million dollars when he entered into the ownership with full knowledge that when he sold the team he would need approval of other owners?  Not a chance in hell.

I think he will Maddog when he’s having trouble garnering enough money to make ends meet that’s why he sold Newsweek. The Tribs payment I believe is in June and to think a couple hundred million is not a big thing then why was he wanting to split Wrigley and the team and sell them separately if he didn’t think it would bring more money in. He’s already stated he’s taking top dollar and I feel that’s exactly what he will do.

And yes, if you challenge the ownership approval clause the things I mentioned will change.  Steinbrenner isn’t going to be paying the Rays any money when he doesn’t have some say over who owns another team.  Steinbrenner isn’t going to pay an amateur player some supposed slot money when he has no say over what other owners do.  Steinbrenner isn’t even going to draft players, but sign them as 16 and 17 year olds.

I don’t believe it for a minute Maddog the NFL has no antitrust but yet they have a salary cap and all teams abide by it. The same thing with baseballs revenue sharing and draft and everything else is set in stone. It takes a majority vote just as it did with the use of instant replay on HR calls the same goes for those other things that you think will magically change. It’s nothing more than a Country Club and it needs to change.

They wouldn’t, and I never said they would. I was simply stating that Marquis is better suited to a more pitcher-friendly environment.

I think the Padres would definitely take Marquis as long as the Cubs paid some of his salary (at least half).  They’re going to need pitching.

I’m sure MD or Colin could run the numbers. I’d be interested to see how it works out.

I took a brief look recently and it’s not as much of an improvement as you’d think.  It surprised me quite a bit, but didn’t Furcal have a shitty 2007 and then he missed a lot of 2008.

It surprised me quite a bit, but didn’t Furcal have a shitty 2007 and then he missed a lot of 2008.

Furcal’s big improvement comes mostly from his defense… mostly from his arm, IIRC.

I’m pressured to do a lot of shit that I don’t do.

We all are, but not all pressure is the same.  And getting pressured to take more money isn’t really a bad kind of pressure.

I think he will Maddog when he’s having trouble garnering enough money to make ends meet that’s why he sold Newsweek.

He can’t make his loan payment without selling the Cubs, Cone.  How is he going to make the payment?  Do you think a billionaire is going to default on a loan just so Mark Cuban can own a baseball team and so that the antitrust exemption is challenged, which would take years to do by the way.  Zell will take the easiest path to making his payment on time.  Maybe that will be Cuban’s money.  Maybe he will get the approval.  The only way he’ll take Cuban’s money is if he gets approved.  He cannot afford to default on the loan.

I don’t believe it for a minute Maddog the NFL has no antitrust but yet they have a salary cap and all teams abide by it

Cone, you don’t get to challenge ownership approval in one area and not the other.  MLB is not the NFL.  It is where it is today because of ownership approval.  Steinbrenner and some other owners aren’t going to approve making other teams better while making themselves less rich. 

Really, I think this is a waste of time as I’m 99.99999% certain that Cuban will neither have the highest bid, have any chance to be accepted as an owner and probably be disqualified from the bidding before the final round due to this insider trading nonsense.  Any chance Cuban had went away yesterday.

There’s a directory for all of the files uploaded to this site.

It varies in degree, but that’s about it. If I want to do it, I do it. If I don’t, I don’t. If it’s best for me, I do it.

I’m the same way, Ryno, but I’m not being pressured by an ultra-powerful union that could decide to ignore my grievances if I don’t do what they want.  And that’s what they do.  “if it’s best for me, I do it.”  Based on what may happen or what may not happen, it probably is best for you. 

I don’t think Ryan Dempster is the caliber of player that is going to piss off the union that much, but he will establish a market value for players like Burnett and Sheets so not only will the union be unhappy, those players won’t either, those player’s friends won’t be, etc.

It’s not accessible through your browser.  What are you looking for?

I want to download all the songs you’ve posted for me over the years.

My opinion is that you improve teams by improving runs scoring or improving run prevention.  It’s easy to say the Cubs need this or they need that, but the reality is there are different ways to improve a club.  Needing more offense?  Improve your pitching staff.  Need more pitching?  Improve your offense.

What you decide to do is really based on what is available and what is the most efficient way to make the improvements.

I was actually saying the same thing in a very roundabout way.  Its just my opinion that it would probably be easier or more cost effective to upgrade at SS or RF.  Probably SS since Furcal is out there.  I said I didnt actually look it up so I was just speculating that we could get a bigger increase from furcal over theriot than from johnson over marquis.