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People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. -- Bruce Bartlett

The Parity Myth: Part One

Posted by Reggie Miller on 01/03/09 at 06:54 PM • 59 Comments

This is an idea I have been kicking around for a while, and bits and pieces of this article have been posted before on other websites (notably Spurs Talk.com, as my alter ego, Reggie Miller.) 

I have a bad habit. When the talking heads at ESPN all parrot the same line, I become obsessed with proving them wrong. This is usually not that difficult.  For about two or three seasons now, an ESPN-mandated talking point has been that there is so much more parity in the NFL, as opposed to the NBA, MLB, and NHL.

Today, this discussion came up at ACB, so I decided to examine the issue.

Let’s make this very stark:

The Four Majors: Regular Season
MLB = 162 games
NBA = 82 games
NFL = 16 games
NHL = 82 games

My initial reaction is pretty simple. It is possible to be 17+ games out of first place in the other three sports, while it isn’t in the NFL. Therefore, the NFL’s “parity” is an illusion created by an unbalanced, short schedule.

Just for example, at the conclusion of the regular season, 9 MLB teams were at least 17 games out of first place in their league.  This was nearly one third of all of MLB. No NFL team had ever gone 0-16 before the Lions accomplished the milestone this season.  In contrast, MLB has had losing streaks longer than 16 games numerous times. The longest are the 1899 Cleveland Spiders (24), 1961 Philadelphia Phillies (23), and 1988 Baltimore Orioles (21).

At first, this is a sword that cuts both ways. Prior to this season, one could easily argue that the fact that no one had ever lost 16 games in a row in a single NFL season “proved” how much parity there really is in the NFL. Of course, the radically shorter season raises other related concerns. For example, is an entire NFL season even statistically significant when it is only 16 games? MLB plays over ten times as many games, and the metrics used in other sports are more or less adapted from baseball scoring and statistics. In the other major sports, almost everyone would agree that 16 games is at best a very small sample size for almost any form of analysis, and at worst, it is totally meaningless.

Due to expansion in three of the major sports, or Interleague Play in MLB’s case, no one plays a true balanced schedule anymore. However, baseball, basketball, and hockey at least come close, because of their longer seasons. Therefore, strength of schedule does play a factor, albeit a small one, in MLB, the NBA, and the NHL. However, manipulation of the short schedule is huge in the NFL.

To make this clearer, the NBA has the only thing close to a true balanced schedule. A team faces opponents in its own division four times a year (16 games), teams from the other two divisions in its conference either three or four times (36 games), and teams in the other conference twice apiece (30 games). For example, the Bulls do not play all of their Eastern Conference opponents an equal number of time at home and away, but this is done on a rotational basis and can be determined years in advance.

The NHL plays 41 games at home and 41 games away. Each team plays all other divisional opponents 8 times (4 home, 4 away), all other conference opponents 4 times (2 home, 2 away) and 10 inter-conference games (1 game against each team in two of the three divisions in the opposite conference). This rotates, much like Interleague Play in MLB. Unlike MLB, it is completely predictable and without exception (no “rivals weekend”).

For many, many decades, MLB had a true balanced schedule, since there were only 16 teams and no Interleague Play. Both the American and National Leagues consisted of eight teams. The schedule consisted of 154 games, or 22 games (11 at home and 11 away) against the other teams in the same league. Since 1969, expansion, divisional play, and Interleague play have changed this system considerably. The current system is extremely Byzantine and distorted by so-called “Rivals Weekend.” For example, the 2008 Cubs will have played 31 games against the NL East, 33 games against the NL West, 82/83* games against the NL Central, and 15 Interleague games for a total of 161/162* games. There is a defined rotational system, except for the pre-determined “rivalries.” (Can you tell I think “rivalry weekend” is bullshit?)

* The final game against Houston was not played.

At any rate, while we don’t have true balanced schedules in the MLB, NBA, and NHL, the longer seasons impose a balanced approach, and the sheer length of their seasons tend to negate the strength of schedule problem.

Turning to the NFL, we can see that the league attempts to use the short season as a “band-aid.” Each of the 32 NFL teams plays the other three teams in its division twice: once at home, and once on the road (6 games). Each team plays the four teams from another division within its own conference once on a rotating three-year cycle: two at home, and two on the road (4 games). Each team plays the four teams from a division in the other conference once on a rotating four-year cycle: two at home, and two on the road (4 games). Each team plays once against the other teams in its conference that finished in the same place in their own divisions as themselves the previous season, not counting the division they were already scheduled to play: one at home, one on the road (2 games).

In other words, not only is the schedule unbalanced, it attempts to “self-correct” with a previous sample size of just 16 games.

MLB does not have a salary cap, but the general perception is that pro baseball is still competitive.  That is, there is still reasonable parity in MLB.  As the discussion above should demonstrate, this “parity” may be a function of a 162 game schedule. 

The general complaint with MLB is that the playoff system is “broken,” because Wild Card teams have been wildly successful since 1995.  A wildcard team has made it to the World Series 9 times in the last 13 years, claiming 4 world championships including 3 of the last 6.  Conventional wisdom (or more likely, conventional stupidity) attributes this to the WC team being forced to play meaningful games well into September, while the team with the best record may not have played a meaningful game in almost a month (see the 2008 Angels).

The truth is that the Emperor Wears No Clothes.  People forget that the wild card team does not necessarily have the worst record.  A quick look at the facts reveals an astonishing truth: the wild card teams are often just plain better.

Al and NL Wild Card League Records to Date
Tie for the best overall record = 1
Tie for or second best overall record = 9
Tie for or third best overall record = 10
Tie for or fourth best overall record = 7

Though the difference is small, it’s worth noting that more wild card teams have been the second-best team in the league than the fourth-best. At any rate, the wild card is not necessarily the true “fourth seed” of the postseason - more often than not, it isn’t. Of course, the better team has still lost a disproportionate number of postseason series, but the difference between the best team and the wild card is typically quite small.  Reasonable Cubs’ fans need only look back to 2003 as an example.  In retrospect, the 2003 Marlins were the better team, even on paper. 

At any rate, the evidence suggests that MLB probably doesn’t need to be “fixed.”

Coming Soon:  Some rudimentary analysis of parity in the NBA and NHL. 

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1. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 03, 2009 @ 08:22 PM

Good stuff, and I do think that sample size plays a HUGE role in the NFL’s parity. But I do think there is more of an ability to go from “worst to first,” beyond that which is allowed by small sample size. The reasons why are many: drafted players usually contribute faster in the NFL than MLB, they can cut bad contracts, and there’s the salary cap. But there’s no doubt that sample size plays a role.

As far as the MLB playoffs being “broken,” i’d argue that they are, but not based on wild card teams success. Rather, it’s the “crapshoot-ness” of the playoffs and that any team has a near 50-50 chance in a series against any other team. I don’t know what the “upset rate” is in the various sports, but i’d wager it’s higher than in the NBA and NFL, even after you account for the size of the field.

2. Horny Goat (view all comments) — Jan 03, 2009 @ 08:34 PM

People forget that the wild card team does not necessarily have the worst record.  A quick look at the facts reveals an astonishing truth: the wild card teams are often just plain better.

This is true. No argument from me there. But I dislike the WC format because it’s not fair. I would rather go back to a true pennant race where teams with the best records over 154/162 games, whatever, make the playoffs. Make it however many teams you need because of the economic realities, but make it fair. An 83-84 win team just doesn’t deserve it, imo. I don’t care if they win their division or not, though there should be some study to see IF divisions suck or if that’s just a myth.

3. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 03, 2009 @ 08:36 PM

Good stuff, and I do think that sample size plays a HUGE role in the NFL’s parity. But I do think there is more of an ability to go from “worst to first,“ beyond that which is allowed by small sample size. The reasons why are many: drafted players usually contribute faster in the NFL than MLB, they can cut bad contracts, and there’s the salary cap. But there’s no doubt that sample size plays a role.

As far as the MLB playoffs being “broken,“ i’d argue that they are, but not based on wild card teams success. Rather, it’s the “crapshoot-ness” of the playoffs and that any team has a near 50-50 chance in a series against any other team. I don’t know what the “upset rate” is in the various sports, but i’d wager it’s higher than in the NBA and NFL, even after you account for the size of the field.

All really good points.  I felt the need to discuss the short, unbalanced schedule since it is always the “elephant in the room.”  If this series is popular enough, I would like to look at some of those issues.  My background is in the legal profession, but I am taking two advanced statistics courses at night this semester.  I would like to look at the role of college (NFL and NBA*) vs. more developed national team and minor league systems (MLB and NHL), for example.

*I don’t give the NBA D-league much credit.  It is more of a way to “store” draft picks from what I can tell.

4. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 03, 2009 @ 08:43 PM

If this series is popular enough, I would like to look at some of those issues.  My background is in the legal profession, but I am taking two advanced statistics courses at night this semester.  I would like to look at the role of college (NFL and NBA*) vs. more developed national team and minor league systems (MLB and NHL), for example.

I won’t speak for anyone else, but I’d be interested in more league comparisons.

5. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 03, 2009 @ 11:50 PM

haha do I change username or screen name to pimpafy?

6. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 03, 2009 @ 11:56 PM

Conventional wisdom (or more likely, conventional stupidity) attributes this to the WC team being forced to play meaningful games well into September, while the team with the best record may not have played a meaningful game in almost a month (see the 2008 Angels).

Yeah, it’s funny when people say that’s why WC teams do better.  I think it was THT that looked at this, or maybe it was Tango, and it’s complete nonsense.  As you’d expect, the better teams wins about as often as you’d expect the better team to win.

7. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 12:00 AM

The Four Majors: Regular Season
MLB = 162 games
NBA = 82 games
NFL = 16 games
NHL = 82 games

I guess my question is what is an adequate sample in each of these leagues?  Generally speaking in baseball a full season is a somewhat adequate sample.  I think some would argue you need 2 years, but that’s usually for players.  For some reason, I get the feeling that in the NBA small sample isn’t as much of an issue on a team basis.  The good teams in the NBA don’t seem to go on extended losing streaks like what can happen to good teams in baseball.  What about the NFL though?  16 games is nothing.  Or at least that’s what I’m trained to think based on my knowledge of baseball, but surely there’s more reliability in those 16 games than you’d get with 16 games in baseball.  If a team went 8-8 in baseball we could probably say the reliability level of that team being a .500 team is next to nothing.  Less than 5 for sure.  What would the reliability be in the NFL?  50?  That’s pretty low too.

8. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 12:01 AM

All really good points.  I felt the need to discuss the short, unbalanced schedule since it is always the “elephant in the room.“  If this series is popular enough, I would like to look at some of those issues.

I’ve really liked the discussion so far today and will enjoy more of it.  People so casually throw around the parity issue in baseball and I don’t think they’re thinking about a lot of things.  I was probably wrong to say it had more parity than the NFL, but I think the 2 leagues are closer than the media and talking heads give credit.

9. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 12:03 AM

haha do I change username or screen name to pimpafy?

Up at the very top of the page there is a link to “Your Account”.  Click on it and then you’ll see some expandable options on the side.  Find the one that says username or screenname and change it.

10. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 12:06 AM

For example, is an entire NFL season even statistically significant when it is only 16 games?

Yeah, that’s basically what I’ve been trying to ask.  Or more accurately, is 16 games in the NFL as statistically significant as it is in baseball?

11. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 12:07 AM

Good stuff here, Reggie.  I’m glad you wrote it.  There’s definitely potential for some interesting discussion on his issue.  Apparently several of us are interested in it so that’s pretty good too.

12. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 12:10 AM

pimpafyed.  thanks

13. BellwetherMeltdown (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:53 AM

By the way, all those rankings for the Bears D comes from the stats at http://www.footballoutsiders.com. It’s a great site for any football fan or any fan of numbers-based sports analysis

I’ve been reading FO on and off for the last two years. I’m not completely sold on it though. I love what they’re trying to do, and I think eventually there’s a lot of value in the work, but there is an inherent flaw in any advanced analysis of football: you don’t know what plays were called. You can certainly watch the plays unfold and see what play was run, but if a DE gets around a tackle and blindsides the QB, you don’t truely know what went wrong. Was a guard supposed to engage a D tackle then disengage and pull around the O tackle and pickup that rusher? Did the O tackle just get beat? Did the guard forget his assignment, or was he just too slow? Sometimes you can tell, many times you cannot. I don’t get the feeling FO is doing anything but taking statsheet data and entering it into a database, and - I hate myself for saying this, but in football it’s true - there are things that don’t show up on the stat sheet.

The Bears were a top-4 rushing defense in every direction but right tackle (in other words between defense’s LE and LT), where they were 17th.

And honestly, I think that has more to do with Tommie Harris than with Ogunleye. Watching Ogunleye, I’ve seen him excel in two ways, as an outside rusher when he can use his speed, and as an inside rusher when he can use his finesse/moves to beat his man. When he has to try and power his way through he gets eaten up.

Tommie failed to penetrate this year, failed to disrupt the play, inherently, this hurt Oguleye on the inside, as even when he could beat the tackle, the guard was usually still standing between him and the quarterback. The other way this hurt him was outside. Because of the lack of pressure from the DT, the bears were selling out with the blitz up the middle. The split the tackles and ends very wide and put both Briggs and Urlacher over the A gap. This forced Ogunleye further outside, gave him a much sharper angle to the quarterback, and often forced him to deal with a TE/T doubleteam.

Now a to a great player, this won’t matter, he’ll just plow through the guard or through the doubleteam and still hit the quarterback. Ogunleye is not a great player, but that doesn’t mean he’s not still serviceable to good, and serviceable to good (well… ok good) is what he was expected to be in this defense.

Now I’m willing to risk giving Tommie Harris another season to get back to his old self, both because I don’t think he was ever healthy this year, and because after Harris, Tank Johnson, Dusty Dvorcheck and Marcus Harrison, you simply can’t invest another day one pick in defensive tackle.

Plus, they need to move D. Manning back to nickelback. He looked comfortable there but completely lost at S.

I don’t want to see D Manning on the field on defense. Ever. Manning, not Hester, was the player they should have tried to convert to WR. He’s as good, if not a better athlete, and he’s far more intelligent.

14. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:01 AM

I guess my question is what is an adequate sample in each of these leagues?

It’s not 16—not for any league. Just look at the Bears this season. They could have easily been 12-4… and almost as easily have been 5-11. The best and worst teams in baseball don’t span that winning %.

15. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:06 AM

I don’t want to see D Manning on the field on defense. Ever. Manning, not Hester, was the player they should have tried to convert to WR. He’s as good, if not a better athlete, and he’s far more intelligent.

That’s one hell of an idea.

I’ve been reading FO on and off for the last two years. I’m not completely sold on it though. I love what they’re trying to do, and I think eventually there’s a lot of value in the work, but there is an inherent flaw in any advanced analysis of football: you don’t know what plays were called. You can certainly watch the plays unfold and see what play was run, but if a DE gets around a tackle and blindsides the QB, you don’t truely know what went wrong. Was a guard supposed to engage a D tackle then disengage and pull around the O tackle and pickup that rusher? Did the O tackle just get beat? Did the guard forget his assignment, or was he just too slow? Sometimes you can tell, many times you cannot. I don’t get the feeling FO is doing anything but taking statsheet data and entering it into a database, and - I hate myself for saying this, but in football it’s true - there are things that don’t show up on the stat sheet.

That’s a fair criticism, but unless you have a trained eye and lots of time to watch video tape (i don’t have either), FO is about the best you’re left with. But the bottom line is whatever the reason, there wasn’t enough of a pass rush this year, and i don’t think there’s anyone that would say the Bears have a legit pass-rushing threat on their roster at the moment. That’s what I’d go after, and those guys usually play on the ends. Maybe you get equal pressure across the line like they were getting a few years ago, but that only happens if Tommy Harris is the same all-world guy he was back then. You can’t count on that, and you can’t spend another pick on DT (as you pointed out) so it’s DE IMO.

Who knows? Maybe Rod “O.” Marinelli will fix the line without any change in the personnel…

16. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 08:57 AM

It’s not 16—not for any league. Just look at the Bears this season. They could have easily been 12-4… and almost as easily have been 5-11. The best and worst teams in baseball don’t span that winning %.

That’s a really good way to look at it, Shawn.  Take Iowa for example.  They lost 4 games by a combined total of 12 points.  They were 9-4 (bowl game included).  This was a team that could have easily been 13-0.  A play or two in each game is all it would have taken and in all honesty a couple of those plays SHOULD have happened (3rd and 2 and 4th and 2 in MSU territory late in the game and Shonn Greene doesn’t even get the ball?).  They beat PSU by 1 and the other 8 wins were solid wins.  They could have been 13-0 or they could have been 8-5 just as easily.  That’s a huge difference.  Consider 12-0 probably puts them in the NC game where they would have gotten slaughtered, but still.  As was they played in the 3rd best Big 10 bowl game behind PSU and MSU.  They were picked ahead of NW although they finished behind them in the standings. 

I remember several years ago before the Raiders had their latest run of success (before a long and miserable stretch), they had 2 seasons in a row in which they were 8-8 and many of those games were decided by 7 points or less.  They drafted Janikowsky and Lechler in the first 2 rounds and then went 12-4.  Not that those 2 kickers were the reason (Gannon helped), but it only took a few marginal additions and they went from mediocre to one of the best in the league and stayed there for a few years until they were killed by the Bucs in the Super Bowl. 

We often talk about games the Cubs should have or could have won around here (especially in 2004 and 2007) and it’s never as large a difference in winning percentage as it is in the NFL.  I suppose that’s one reason why NFL teams can go 4-12 one year and then get into the playoffs the next year.  Sometimes all it takes is just a little luck.  If you go 40-120 in baseball, luck isn’t going to save your following season.  Luck falling on your side might mean the difference between 40-120 and 45-115 or at most 50-110.  You’re still going to suck unless you spend a shitload of money and even then you’re probably still going to suck.

17. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 10:26 AM

In fairness, if we’re really looking at football like we look at baseball, wouldn’t we deal with stats in terms of plays or posessions instead of games? I can think of very few stats that get very much meaningful raw data from games played. Obviously, most stats consider plate appearances, ABs, or opportunities per game. When you consider there’s somewhere along the lines of 80-100 plays per football game and extrapolate that over 16 games, I feel like the statistics derived from football are almost as relevant as those in baseball.

This contributes almost nothing to the parity discussion, but I think this does temper the idea (if only slightly) that football’s sample sizes in general are too small.

18. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 10:38 AM

Also, I feel like there’s also an argument to be made about that same thing being the reason why there’s less parity in the NBA: it has the greatest number of possessions per season among the three major sports (I don’t know much about hockey, so I’m avoiding making any big claims about it) and thus more trials for the best teams to rise to the top.

19. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 11:01 AM

Interesting point about possessions or plays, Rick.  However, consider that each team gets roughly 40 plate appearances per games on offense and 40 plate appearances per game on defense.  That’s about 80 “plays” per game.  To be more precise, in 2008 teams averaged 38.6 PA’s per game on offense (and defense of course).  That’s 77.2 PA’s per game. 

I just think that in 162 games, or 80 or 82 games you’re undoubtedly much more likely to get a real representation of the team’s talent.  That being said, teams do overperform from year to year in baseball and it’s probably somewhere within 10 games on the extremes, and more likely within 5 games on average.  That’s about a 3.1% variation from a team’s true talent level (i’m just throwing out the 5 game number or 10-game number here).  At the extremes it would be 6.2%. 

What would you say a true 8-8 team in the NFL could do?  4-12, 12-4?  6-10, 10-6?  The latter doesn’t seem reasonable to me, but I admittedly don’t know much about football.  If we say a true .500 team in football could finish within 4 wins of .500, we’re talking about a variance of 25% and what would the extremes be?  I think there’s significantly more useful data in baseball simply because there are so many games. 

I could be wrong.

20. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 11:12 AM

I’d guess a true 81-81 team in baseball would about 75% of the time have a record between 75-87 and 87-75.  That’s a winning percentage between .463 and .537. 

If we are conservative and say that 75% of 8-8 teams in the NFL will finish between 6-10 and 10-6, it’s a difference of .375 and .625.  Let’s even say that a .500 team would more than likely finish within one game of .500.  That’s a difference of .438 and .563. 

These are all my guesses so keep that in mind.  I’m just trying to paint a picture though I’m no artist.

In baseball the difference in percentage points is .075.  This is for a 6-game variation from .500.  In football, just a one-game variation has a difference of .125.  That’s more than 50% greater.  If we lower it to 2 games within .500, the difference is then .250 or about 300% greater than it would be in baseball.  Now imagine if that variance is 4 games within .500.  It’s a difference of .500 points. 

I don’t know if any of this means anything, but I’d think just because it’s so much easier to have a higher or lower winning percentage in football than it is in baseball that sample size has to be an impact here. 

Additionally, last year we had a team go 16-0 and this year one went 0-16.  If the difference in talent from one team to the next in the NFL is so unbelievably large, is there really parity in the league?  I’d think the average differences between best and worst in the NFL would be 10-6 and 6-10 rather than 15-1 and 1-15 or whatever it often is.  The difference between the best and worst in the NFL is ridiculous.  While the same thing can be said in all sports, I think the difference between the best and worst in baseball is far less than it is in football.  Am I just plain wrong here?

21. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 12:04 PM

Additionally, last year we had a team go 16-0 and this year one went 0-16.  If the difference in talent from one team to the next in the NFL is so unbelievably large, is there really parity in the league?  I’d think the average differences between best and worst in the NFL would be 10-6 and 6-10 rather than 15-1 and 1-15 or whatever it often is.  The difference between the best and worst in the NFL is ridiculous.  While the same thing can be said in all sports, I think the difference between the best and worst in baseball is far less than it is in football.  Am I just plain wrong here?

Yeah I think you are. Two or three plays could swing just about any game. I really don’t think the gap between 0-16 and 6-10 is really all that great. The Lions lead several games this year that got away from them late. You drop Peyton manning onto the Lions, they probably win 5 or 6 games. Taking Tom Brady off the Patriots dropped them from 16-0 to 10-6 (that’s a big simplication, but still.)

You don’t even need to go to such extremes. Give the lions a good player at 3 positions, say QB, linebacker and safety and they probably win 6 games. 

If three players are worth six wins in the NFL, I think it’s fair to say that six games in the NFL is about 60 games in baseball. Who do you think the best player in baseball is? Pujols? His best WARP1 ever is 13, even three of him on a team in his best year ever is only worth 39 wins.

This again comes down to the small sample size, of course, if you played 16 baseball games without Albert Pujols and then 16 games with Albert pujols, you may very win six more games with him, but it doesn’t mean that there isn’t parity.

22. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 12:18 PM

Not to nitpick here (well, actually it is what I’m doing!), WARP1 has an extremely low replacement level.  It assumes a team full of replacement players would win about 24 games.  They base this off the worst team in history (I think the 1899 Spiders who won like 20 games).  A much more realistic replacement level is around a .300 winning percentage as opposed to a .120 or .150 as BP uses.  Adjusting for that, even in Pujols’ best year he’s not even worth 30 wins over 3 years. 

I’m obviously not able to look at this in what is probably the correct manner to do so.  I don’t know why.  It’s just one of those things that seems rational to me, but probably is as irrational as it gets.  It’s probably as silly an opinion as the ones I often mock.  The difference is that I accept I know little about football and will never pretend otherwise.  I’m really not capable of arguing about this in a rational manner because I just don’t understand football as well as I do baseball. 

So most of what I say is conjecture, opinion and probably flat out wrong.  But as Al would say, it’s my opinion and if you don’t like it, well, I have others.  (dying laughing)

23. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:00 PM

WARP1 has an extremely low replacement level.

Yeah, 13 seemed extraordinarily high. I’m used to seeing WARs for excellent players in the 4-5 range. When I looked it up I was expecting to see a 6, maybe a 7.

24. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:14 PM

I’d be kind of pumped if we kept that Gaub guy from the Indians instead of dealing him in the Peavy trade.  Of course, I kind of like all the guys we got.  None of them are anything yet, and Stevens is almost sure to get dealt in any Peavy deal, but I’m a big fan of LHP with stuff that sits in the mid-90’s.

25. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:16 PM

In fairness, if we’re really looking at football like we look at baseball, wouldn’t we deal with stats in terms of plays or posessions instead of games? I can think of very few stats that get very much meaningful raw data from games played. Obviously, most stats consider plate appearances, ABs, or opportunities per game. When you consider there’s somewhere along the lines of 80-100 plays per football game and extrapolate that over 16 games, I feel like the statistics derived from football are almost as relevant as those in baseball.

This contributes almost nothing to the parity discussion, but I think this does temper the idea (if only slightly) that football’s sample sizes in general are too small.

I was just thining about taking this approach to the problem. FO’s DVOA team ratings are based on analysis at a play-by-play level, and they compare things on a % better or worse than average scale. (Sort of like OPS+.) The Eagles were the best team in the league according to this metric, with a DVOA of +30.5% (akin to an OPS+ of 130.5). The worst team in the league was Detroit, with a low of -42.1% (akin to an OPS+ of 57.9). I don’t know if there’s a similar metric in baseball - perhaps team OPS+ and ERA+, does that exist?

26. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:19 PM

You don’t even need to go to such extremes. Give the lions a good player at 3 positions, say QB, linebacker and safety and they probably win 6 games.

And they have 3 of the first 33 picks? It’s not unreasonable for them to scoop up all 3. I don’t think Taylor Mays will fall to 20 (he better not, given that the Bears are sitting at 18), but they could grab QB of their choice at 1, Mays at 20, and a LB at 33. That would go a long way towards making them respectable.

27. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:19 PM

I know he’s our best reliever and stuff, but I think it’d be interesting to see what Marmol could do for 6 innings every 5th day.  He’d likely walk 100 batters a season, but if he could keep those hit numbers in the 6 or 7 H/9 IP range it’d be a fair trade.  I think Lou would have an aneurysm from all the walks though.

28. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:27 PM

Sounds rather simple, but sometimes simple is best…would it make sense to include an evaluation of player’s production variance?  For example, do more NFL players have fluke seasons (good or bad) than do NBA, MLB or NHL players?  It seems to me one way to look at the sample size issue (we know that 2 years of data for a player in baseball is adequate to figure out a true talent level (3 years would be ideal) would be to look at how much variance can be expected from the players in an individual season.  In baseball we know that a player’s wOBA is expected to vary from their true talent level by about .030 if that player were to get around 500 plate appearances.  I don’t know the exact number as I don’t have it in front of me, but it’s something like that.  MGL says it takes 3 years of UZR data to be reliable so there’s definitely some variance (more than hitting) on defense.  What is the expected level of production for an NFL player over the course of a 16-game season who has a true talent level of exactly average?  To use QBs as a possibility and something as silly as passer rating (because it’s about the most complex number in football that I’m familiar with), would a
QB whose true talent level is that of an 80 passing rater be expected to fall within 70 or 90?  60 or 100?  50 or 110?  30 and 140?  What?  This has certainly been researched, I’d think.

I’d expect if the variance is greater than that of an MLB player that the amount of “luck” involved is at least greater in the NFL than in MLB and we know luck plays a large role in baseball.  Or are players more consistent, which would seem to imply that the sample size is more adequate than in baseball?

Any of that make sense or is any of it worthwhile to understand?

29. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:30 PM

I know he’s our best reliever and stuff, but I think it’d be interesting to see what Marmol could do for 6 innings every 5th day.  He’d likely walk 100 batters a season, but if he could keep those hit numbers in the 6 or 7 H/9 IP range it’d be a fair trade.  I think Lou would have an aneurysm from all the walks though.

I was still in favor of giving Marmol another shot in the rotation this past year.  He has the best stuff of any pitcher we have with the possible exception of Rich Harden. 

I’m not sure it’s something you would want to do at this point though considering he’s not stretched out to be a starter and he’s had tremendous success as a reliever.  He has confidence when he goes to the mound as a reliever that he’s going to get people out.  That confidence would take a hit and while I don’t think it’s a huge issue most of the time, I fear it could be in this case.  I’m not sure it would be worth it now. 

I wish they had done it last year though.

30. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:31 PM

Sam, I’d like to keep Gaub as well if I could choose between the 3.  I look at him as being a better pitcher than Veal who the Cubs may have lost if the Pirates keep him on their roster.  He also makes up for the loss of Ceda as well.

31. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:34 PM

I just realized something:  the Cubs didn’t just act like a large market organization after the 2006 season, they’ve done it ever since.  Obviously they signed almost everyone after 2006 and then signed the best outfielder available last year and then traded for the best pitcher in baseball.  This offseason only the Yankees have handed out a larger contract than the Cubs have given out (Dempster).  They’re still after Peavy, which would be the 4th largest contract addition of the offseason, bumping Dempster to 5th.  The Yankees have the top 3.  Maybe others have noticed this, but I’m a dumbass and just realized it.

32. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:36 PM

After a relatively quiet beginning to their offseason, the Cubs got busy on the final day of 2008 when second baseman Mark DeRosa was traded to the Indians for pitching prospects. The deal came just hours after the Cubs had signed infielder Aaron Miles as a free agent to share time at second base with Mike Fontenot next season. It could be a case of Cubs GM Jim Hendry selling high on DeRosa after his career-high .296 EqA last season, but a more likely reason for the trade was that it sets up a number of other moves.

The Cubs have made no secret of their desire to sign free-agent outfielder Milton Bradley to fill their need for a left-handed hitter to play right field, which would enable the disappointing Kosuke Fukudome to move into a center-field platoon with Reed Johnson. The Cubs also want to add a veteran backup catcher to replace Henry Blanco, and are trying to sign free-agent Paul Bako, who spent last season with the Reds.

However, the biggest move could be the Cubs making a renewed bid to trade for Padres right-hander Jake Peavy, particularly since Hendry also has a deal in place to ship starter Jason Marquis to the Rockies for reliever Luis Vizcaino after replenishing the organization’s stock of pitching prospects with the DeRosa deal. “We certainly wouldn’t close the door on anything,” Hendry told Gordon Wittenmyer of the Chicago Sun-Times. “Once we add the outfielder we want to add, we’ll take a good look where we’re at. The pen is getting deeper and deeper. We’ll see how we want to shape up the starting situation, whether we pursue somebody else, or use somebody internally in that role.”—John Perrotto, BP

33. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:39 PM

Just a little dreaming here, but imagine if Rich Hill somehow returned to his 2007 form.  It’s not impossible.  It’s far-fetched at this point for sure.

Harden, Zambrano, Dempster, Lilly, and Hill.  That would be crazy good.

34. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:49 PM

I don’t know if there’s a similar metric in baseball - perhaps team OPS+ and ERA+, does that exist?

On the team pages it compiles all the hitter and pitcher stats at the bottom of the columns.  Cubs Hitters OPS+? 108. Pitchers ERA+? 115.

Wouldn’t using some derivative of a Pythagorean expectation be a good determinate of team talent in football?  I know basketball metrics uses one based on James’ formula (with a larger exponent, I believe), but why doesn’t football?  I think that could be pretty telling that they don’t have enough sample to create a proper test.  So much for ‘parity’.

35. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:53 PM

To use QBs as a possibility and something as silly as passer rating (because it’s about the most complex number in football that I’m familiar with), would a QB whose true talent level is that of an 80 passing rater be expected to fall within 70 or 90?  60 or 100?  50 or 110?  30 and 140?  What?  This has certainly been researched, I’d think.

Passer rating kinda blows, but that said, 80 is average. I’d say a ‘true talent level’ 80 passer would probably be expected to fall between 75-85. 70 is pretty bad, 90 is really good, 100 is great, 60 is awful. a 90 rated career passer is probably a borderline hall of famer, a 70 is a borderline starter. A player who vacillates between 70 and 90 from one year to the next is wildly inconsistent.

36. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:57 PM

Just a little dreaming here, but imagine if Rich Hill somehow returned to his 2007 form.  It’s not impossible.  It’s far-fetched at this point for sure.

Harden, Zambrano, Dempster, Lilly, and Hill.  That would be crazy good.

That’s a good point.  Who’s this Jake Peavy guy we’re going to get anyway?  Is he as good as Hill or Marshall?  If not I just really don’t see acquiring him as being an improvement.  Man, I’d almost just wrote him off for next year, but if he could return to form, you’ve got some great assets to trade should the need arise.

37. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 01:57 PM

Too bad there aren’t any decent young SS’s to take from some willing team this off-season.  Chin-Lung Hu hasn’t shown much with the bat, although with the glove he has he probably doesn’t need to.  I’d be surprised if he was available though.  It’d really be nice if Cedeno would step it up though.  I still think he’s got a better package than Theriot all around.

38. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:01 PM

Dan Pompei thinks Tim Tebow will be drafted in the first round as a quarterback, and Phil Rogers thinks Mark Grace deserves to be in the hall of fame.

I’m going to go lay down on my side, and hopefully by the time I wake up my brain will have leaked out through my ear.

39. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:08 PM

You think QBs are that consistent, BM?  I never would have guessed that.  That sounds remarkably consistent to me, but I don’t have a clue either.

40. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:09 PM

If Mark Grace gets into the Hall of Fame they need to eliminate it.  What’s sad is that Grace will end up getting more votes than Tim Raines will.  If/when that happens I’m going to throw a fit.

41. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:23 PM

You think QBs are that consistent, BM?  I never would have guessed that.  That sounds remarkably consistent to me, but I don’t have a clue either.

This is why QB rating blows.

This season:

McNabb was an 86
Jason Campbell was an 84
Eli Manning was an 86
Kyle Orton was a 79
Gus Frerotte was a 73
Dan Orlovsky was a 73
Jake Delhomme was an 85
Matt Ryan was an 88
Sean Hill was an 87
Senica Wallace was an 87
Brett Favre was an 81
Trent Edwards was an 85
Ben Roethlisberger was an 80
Joe Flacco was an 80
Kerry Collins was an 80
David Garrard was an 82
Jay Cutler was an 86
JaMarcus Russell was a 77
Tyler Thigpen was a 76

ok, that goes from 73-88 rather than 75-85, but just look at the names on that list. even someone who doesn’t watch a whole lot of football can tell that names like McNabb and Cutler don’t belong anywhere near a list with names like Frerotte. Don’t even get me started on Senaca Wallace/Shaun Hill.

It works for distinguishing the exceptionally good quarterbacks and the exceptionally bad quarterbacks from the pack, but there’s a world of difference between the best players on that list and the worst players on that list, and yet that’s only a 15 point spread

42. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:23 PM

A player who vacillates between 70 and 90 from one year to the next is wildly inconsistent.

What does that make a player that routinely fluctuates from >90 in one game to < 20 the next?

43. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:26 PM

Harden, Zambrano, Dempster, Lilly, and Hill.  That would be crazy good.

What are the chances of this happening? They have to be extremely small, especially after Hill’s winter ball performance.

44. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:34 PM

What does that make a player that routinely fluctuates from >90 in one game to < 20 the next?

Rex Grossman?

45. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:43 PM

Rex Grossman?

That’s where I was going with that one…

46. Jame Gumb ® (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 02:53 PM

Dan Pompei thinks Tim Tebow will be drafted in the first round as a quarterback

He has to declare first. And what’s wrong with Shaun Hill?

47. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 06:45 PM

Two (sort-of) questions: If Bradford is available, don’t the 49’ers have to take him (and would that kill Jame?)?—-and—- If Tebow is available in the 2nd round, should the Bears take a chance on him? Just cuz, you know, he could be like possibly the best TE/WR still available.

48. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 06:46 PM

Oh, and if Shonn greene runs a 4.45, he has to go 1st-round, right?

49. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 07:06 PM

As a 9ers fan I don’t think another 1st round qb is the way to go. I think they’d be much better off addressing their pass rush and wr needs, and then seeking a qb another way. (Cassell, McNabb, Derek Anderson) Otherwise have Shaun Hill and Alex Smith battle it out in camp next year, and give Hill a real chance to win it. (sounds like he got shafted from the get-go this year as martz wanted o’sullivan and the org wanted smith) QB isn’t as big of a problem as bringing in a serious pass-rushing threat. I’d like to see Suggs or Peppers approached in the offseason if they both don’t resign.

*not that anyone cares about the 9ers, but since you asked*

50. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 07:14 PM

I also don’t think the combine is going to benefit Shonn Greene. He is a beast, and I definitely think he will have some success on the pro level but he’s not a speed and hands type of running back. The 40, the high jump, cones drills and all the pass-catching isn’t his skill set as much as the power, leverage, tackle-breaking is. So unless he gets to plow some safeties or stiff arm some corners I don’t think the combine will do him justice. I’d love to see his stock go up and as you said a good 40 time definitely could do it but I think his highlight tape speaks for itself.

51. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 07:27 PM

*not that anyone cares about the 9ers, but since you asked*

I think there are at least 3 49ers fans around here.  Probably more than any other team with the exception of the Bears.

52. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 07:28 PM

I think Greene is the type of runner that teams in the NFL wants.  He doesn’t go to the outside very much, which is impossible to do in the NFL.  He runs between the tackles and while he obviously won’t be as good in the NFL, the guy is very hard to bring down.

53. BellwetherMeltdown (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 08:06 PM

what’s wrong with Shaun Hill?

It’s possible that Shaun Hill’s true talent level is that of the 90 rated passer he’s professed to be in his 350 or so career attempts, but I think if it were likely, he would have been starting somewhere before he turned 27.

Tebow is available in the 2nd round, should the Bears take a chance on him?

The Bears have swung and missed on so many projects in the first three rounds in the last 5 years or so it’d be funny if it wasn’t so sad. They cannot afford to be cute. I think Tebow is a FB/TE (A Chris Cooley type.) I would not spend more than a 4th round pick on him.

The only team I can see drafting him in the first two rounds is the Raiders, but I’m sure some NFL executive will prove me wrong in a bout of aggressive stupidity.

54. BellwetherMeltdown (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 08:18 PM

Shonn Greene. He is a beast, and I definitely think he will have some success on the pro level but he’s not a speed and hands type of running back.

Shonn Greene reminds me of Deuce Staley. He’s more talented than Deuce, and if he can stay healthy he’ll have a much better career, but that’s who I see when I watch him.

55. MB21 (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 08:22 PM

The only team I can see drafting him in the first two rounds is the Raiders

The Raiders are only about 5 years and a death of an owner away from being good again.  (dying laughing)

56. Faith Plus One (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 09:22 PM

If Mark Grace gets into the Hall of Fame they need to eliminate it.  What’s sad is that Grace will end up getting more votes than Tim Raines will.  If/when that happens I’m going to throw a fit.

I hate Mark Grace. Hate him. Decent player, major cock. Hate him.

57. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 09:45 PM

I wish the Bears would take Tebow in the draft. There is no way he can be a productive NFL player. His raw athleticisim is not going to translate in the NFL. No way. The Bears should be focused on a pass rushing DE in the second round, possible some help on the O-Line. Thats my humble opinion, and of course, should be taken with a grain of salt.

58. Faith Plus One (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 09:50 PM

The Bears should be focused on a pass rushing DE in the second round, possible some help on the O-Line.

Agreed. Give Kyle Orton something to work with, I simply do not think Orton was the problem this year so much as the receivers were. I’m not sure Brian Urlacher is half the back he’s been in the last few years either. The Bears need to do something though.

59. (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) (view all comments) — Jan 04, 2009 @ 09:53 PM

I think Greene is the type of runner that teams in the NFL wants.  He doesn’t go to the outside very much, which is impossible to do in the NFL.  He runs between the tackles and while he obviously won’t be as good in the NFL, the guy is very hard to bring down.

I agree Maddog, Greene runs with aggression and he explodes well through the hole, he also keeps his shoulders square with the line of scrimmage. He runs low, much like Turner the Burner, he has good power in his legs. Arm tackles simply will not do, and many times in the NFL when you break one tackle and explode the way he does, it’s just a matter of running to daylight. I don’t know if he has the speed to pull away from an opposing secondary, that would be his only weakness imo.

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